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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 17 post(s) |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1022
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Posted - 2013.09.10 19:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Utterly pointless hand-waving; might as well have not posted anything.
The new wording does not at all reflect past policy with reference to representing yourself as a member of a group. Come back and try again when you've actually addressed the community's concerns. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1023
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Posted - 2013.09.10 19:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Seriously here, you guys are the ones who are going to be inundated with multiple new classes of petitions for actions you have not historically punished but which your new wording suggests are at least potentially actionable.
This is an extremely unprofessional response, and you are only hurting yourselves by not sitting down and just doing your job properly. If nothing has changed with reference to enforcement, then at the very least roll back the wording to its previous unproblematic version. By your own statements here, that would be the most logical course of action. Why make a clarification that represents a worse explanation than that which it was originally meant to clarify? Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1023
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 19:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Crestor Markham wrote:GM Grimmi wrote:We cannot go into specifics as each report is different and this will just end up leading into a circular argument of GÇ£ifsGÇ¥ and GÇ£butsGÇ¥. We will say that impersonation cases are handled on a case by case basis by experienced GMs and there is no change in how such cases will be handled from now from how they were handled a year ago. If that's the case, then the new language is more confusing than ever, because it makes scams that have been going for years sound illegal, even though apparently they're not? I think most people would agree that the new language makes it sound like the policy is changing. If it's not changing, the new TOS language should be altered to make that clear.
Precisely. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1026
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Posted - 2013.09.10 20:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:How about you guys just walk back to the previous revision.. the one that didn't cause the uproar and do a complete rethink on this. You guys at CCP have a ton of goodwill and respect points for turning the company around after the Incarna fiasco. Don't waste them here. You are probably going to need as much as you can get when you take another look at expanding incarna or any thing else gameplay wise.
Excellent post. This is how I feel as well.
This game is revolutionary in how it depends on player input and feedback. Every time the effort is spent to really understand and respond to what the players are saying, the game gets better; and, of course, the opposite when the old "we know best, trust us" attitude comes creeping back.
Stop, think, do your jobs properly, and solve this problem like it should be solved. Learn your own institutional history, as we have been through this so many times before, and the best course of action has always been to listen to what the community is trying to tell you, not to try and side-step the issue through condescending and blatantly transparent corporate jargon.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1028
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Posted - 2013.09.10 21:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aryth wrote:I am waiting for DUST to die already so at least they are only paying attention to 2 games, not three.
The sad thing is that it would take someone with an understanding of the issue and basic competence with english a few hours at most to clearly lay out the basic rule. All this talk about how "we can't make a perfect rule" and "don't want to get into a protracted discussion of endless hypotheticals" is a little ridiculous considering how little effort is really involved here.
I'll pay the fiftyish bucks wages so one guy can just spend two hours writing something better. Mail me an invoice. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1032
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Posted - 2013.09.11 01:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Second time's the charm. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1037
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Posted - 2013.09.11 13:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ok, first off, thanks for the effort. Obviously somebody sat down and put a bit of thought into this response.
However, you do realize that this is a massive change in effective policy, whether you were policing it properly before or not? You have just massively altered the nature of effective espionage in this game. The fact that you meant it to be one way all along does in no way change the fact that it, in effect, was not. This isn't just a matter of "scamming", but limits a huge range of deceptions that are currently the bread and butter of the metagame.
Not to speak for everyone, but my guess is that most people thought the earlier posts were "unclear" because we couldn't believe that you would introduce such a massive change in effective policy in the context of "well, this is actually what we meant all along, everyone has just been playing a absolutely crucial and defining aspect of this game improperly, by policy standards, all along".
Frankly, it's farcical, and demonstrates a frightening disconnect between the existing gameplay and those purported to "police" it.
Again, thanks for at least trying this time, though the outcome is more troubling than when I merely thought you were bumbling around with language instead of with the very foundational and defining aspects of the game. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1041
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Posted - 2013.09.11 14:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Well, at least CCP finally admits their intention was to ban many forms of scamming.
I still have hope that this is just a case of "GMs gone wild", and someone who isn't the video-game version of an arm-banded thug from 1930s Europe has the sense to step in here and impose some sanity.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1044
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Posted - 2013.09.11 14:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:To be honest it's even more troubling that these insane interpretations of the rules were the status quo, and only didn't come to light because nobody was crazy enough to petition someone who said they were an alt of someone else when they actually were.
It really does seem unbelievable that absolutely fundamental and defining aspects of the game have been played "wrong" for ten years.
I don't know how to suggest that this issue be taken over by someone who actually knows what they're talking about without hurting people's feelings, but it needs to be done. This is now beyond ridiculous, and obviously far beyond the purview and competence of the GM team. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1046
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Posted - 2013.09.11 16:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:My take on this "clarification" - people that have been scammed/AWOX'd over the years have not been filing enough petitions!! What we have all believed to be valid EVE sandbox play has been in violation the whole time. We conned ourselves. lol
Apparently that's literally what they'd have us believe. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1050
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Posted - 2013.09.11 17:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:Second time's the charm. Third time, right? Expect to be here a while...
HA! I had forgotten about that post.
Well-played, my good man (not that I am suggesting that you are misprepresenting yourself as a spacewoman when you are, in fact, an earthman at a computer). Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1057
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Posted - 2013.09.11 19:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
We are well aware that the GM team is now clear on what they think they mean, the incredulity and frustration stems from the content of what they think they mean.
The hilarious part is that they don't seem to grasp that we are really looking out for their best interests here. They are the ones who are going to suffer most from this catastrophe, as we just get to watch from the sidelines roasting marshmallows while they attempt to police a 180 shift in the game's basic policy. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1062
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Posted - 2013.09.11 20:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
The most disappointing part is that I thought we had got beyond the now formulaic beating over the head necessary to get major issues addressed. It's almost funny how dispassionate this "riot" is, as we all merely go through the now nauseatingly familiar motions until heads are removed from buttes... but instead it's just sad.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1070
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 21:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Also, after the flood of impersonation petition has drowned the GM staff, which of the above will be crowned the actual goons and on what grounds (and by whom, since the GMs will all have had strong urges to trip over the edge of a volcano at that point)?
PL are the True Goons.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1073
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Posted - 2013.09.11 23:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yeah, clearly the GM team is trying to get away with "we'll make an effort to bend the EULA to protect our favorite pet players (Chribba, somer, etc)". I appreciate the people who go that extra mile to create interesting content in the game, but there is a price to fame. The bigger your sandcastle, the more tempting it is to try and kick over, and you shouldn't be given special protection just because you've managed to poke your head further out from the sand than others...you particularly shouldn't be given special treatment in this case, as crawling your way to the top on the backs of others is what this game is all about, and king of the hill is pointless if you change the rules for the guy at the top. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1074
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Posted - 2013.09.12 00:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:John Ryuk wrote:Most of you whine way to much,
For 1. It's THERE GAME, they can do whatever they want whenever they want.
2. They CAN ban you for cussing, but since I have been around since 2005 and cuss more in local chats than a sailor, they use GM Discreation, Meaning if you sit and try and say your ODIN there gonna laugh at that report, but if you say your GM or DEV so and so, it's ban hammer time.
This is to cut down on scammers, and I'm for it. It all comes down to common sense, which most of you don't seem to have because your over thinking this.
Use some common sense.
Keeping it real since 1886 http://i4.minus.com/jSnAit8P0MhM2.jpg
I didn't even catch that. ******* priceless. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1075
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Posted - 2013.09.12 03:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Why would I go to the great lengths involved in some of the greatest heists, upsets, coups, and underdog comeback victories that define this game if I don't even know whether or not it will all be reversed the following day according to some ill-conceived and irregularly-enforced rule? The vast majority of the player-driven story that supplies the flavor to all the mechanical actions that take place in the game is based on the freedom to deceive, and now they have both changed the written rules regarding deception and declared that their enforcement will be irregular and impenetrable.
"This doesn't affect me solo-grinding my levels fours in hisec..."
So then why the **** are you even posting about it?
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1080
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Posted - 2013.09.12 15:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Unlike the majority of guys in this thread, I'm not afraid of girls. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1086
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 21:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
LTHenrich Lehmann wrote:Thanks for the positive dialog, I accept that the community may not be happy and that is fine, we each enjoy the game with our own play styles, I simply hope that with sensible thoughtful discussion the reality of where we are now, and where it goes in the weeks ahead, depending on CSM discussions with CCP, player feedback etc, will be a place where we can all continue to enjoy the game we all like so much.
I am hoping that others like myself can have a little patience to see what the reality is as it becomes clearer.
o/
Unfortunately CCP has established a long precedent for itself of shutting the door on any dissent, reasonable or not, only to finally cave and apologize profusely on bended knee after having been hit over the head repeatedly by actions which are the exact opposite of reasoned discourse. Therefore, while I agree with you generally, in the specific case of CCP it's actually more productive to stamp your feet, hold you breath, and start feeding stories to video game media outlets.
That said, if someone were to step up and clearly lay out in point form the outstanding issues, that would go a long way toward establishing the coherence of our collective grievances. That, in turn, said, I am personally too lazy generally, and have furthermore recently developed a growing lethargy toward CCP's perennial bumbling and directionlessness. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1086
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 22:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ssoraszh Tzarszh wrote:It feels to me like CCP would people to play the game, and not out of context or "meta" ergo: scamming in game is allowed and using out of game methods is frowned upon.
Except your impression of what you think CCP will do is meaningless to the rest of us. Without clear rules and consistent application of those rules, people will just stop those relevant activities for fear of being banned and/or having their efforts reversed.
It's great that you have faith, the rest of us don't, nor do we care that you do.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1086
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Posted - 2013.09.12 22:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Anyone who has seen dealings with the GM team for any length of time will know how utterly insane some of their decisions are, so you have to escalate. Then it will get reversed, then the reversal can be reversed.
So please excuse the playerbase for not taking their word for their intentions. It is not that people believe they are evil, it is that we believe they are arbitrary far too much.
What she said.
Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1086
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 22:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
LTHenrich Lehmann wrote:If that fails then at least we can point out that it was tried first.
Again generally correct, except it appears the CSM is being quashed by NDA or something, as they are nowhere to be found.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1086
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 22:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:LTHenrich Lehmann wrote:If that fails then at least we can point out that it was tried first. Again generally correct, except it appears the CSM is being quashed by NDA or something, as they are nowhere to be found. There was that one who said we were "ineffectually rioting" as well as being idiots for not just accepting it
I stand by my description.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1087
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 23:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
LTHenrich Lehmann wrote:Some progress might be in the making as we speak, but maybe they don't want to rush and mess up so taking the time to try to get out something that suits the situation. I know, I know. But one can hope right?
That was before the supposed "final word on the matter" posted 2 days ago.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1087
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 23:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ssoraszh Tzarszh wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:LTHenrich Lehmann wrote:Some progress might be in the making as we speak, but maybe they don't want to rush and mess up so taking the time to try to get out something that suits the situation. I know, I know. But one can hope right? That was before the supposed "final word on the matter" posted 2 days ago. If you actually read said post, you would understand that this is a process that will take up some time (as stated by Ari) and it is unlikely anything 'new' will pop up until the internal discussion has been had.
Except a post by a GM after the post you are referencing said it was the final word on the matter, so the failure to understand is yours.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1088
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 23:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
LTHenrich Lehmann wrote:GM Karidor wrote:To counter the notion that we're just sitting this out... I'm still watching this thread and trying to follow the discussion, but so far I don't have any more (or rather anything new or different) to say on the matter itself. This, listening, taking note, not just sitting out is what I was hoping for. Now keep calm folks don't all rush at once. We cannot expect instant yes we can do yadda yadda in the next 5 minutes. Ok so now you have your chance to show your real, not knee jerk concerns, don't waste the opportunity with whining and complaining. Real uncluttered details would be of most use to get any progress if that becomes possible. Good luck with making clear understanderble points that can be worked with
Except the GM team's inability to understand the clear issues with this change was the problem in the first place. Frankly, the GM team's involvement at this point is utterly meaningless.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1088
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 23:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ssoraszh Tzarszh wrote:In all respect to the GM's, they don't make the policy, only execute it. and the 'discussion' between CCP and CSM does not stop at the GM gate. Your failure to understand this or inform yourself on these matters is telling.
The GM team said they were speaking directly to the CSM on the matter, and then they posted that their following post-consultation decision was the final word. There is no reason to expect that any other process is currently underway.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1089
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Posted - 2013.09.13 00:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ssoraszh Tzarszh wrote: The CSM have been in contact with CCP, not just the GM's but also the Devs (they just got back from the iceland meeting). And it is very likely they would discus it with the dev's in charge of these matters.
You have no idea whether this is true or not, nor the nature of these discussions if they are taking place. All we know is that in their official capacities, the CSM was speaking directly with the GM team, who then said the decisions was final.
Stop talking out your ass.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1090
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 01:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Who even cares about the alt thing really?
It was NEVER a rule that you couldn't lie about membership in a "group" (whatever "group" is supposed to mean). That point is so blatantly obvious that it invalidates all of this hemming and hawing over edge cases in terms of the need for a complete revision of this entire event from the very beginning (not to mention an internal process of review of how exactly a disaster like this occurred in the first place) . Obviously the new number 8 rule cannot stand and needs to be completely revised. Lying about being someone's alt is an edge case that can dealt with separately. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1092
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Posted - 2013.09.13 02:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
Le Creed wrote:It's pretty clear we as players don't want this TOS/EULA change so why continue to force it upon us?
To protect a literal handful of "special players" whose "specialness" is a direct product of their success at creating cooperative bonds in a game where cooperation is inherently risky and difficult, thereby eliminating the underlying challenge that made their current achievements so special in the first place. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1094
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Posted - 2013.09.13 03:00:00 -
[31] - Quote
Fix Lag wrote:What about all the people with NPC names in their corp or character names? Obviously they need to be banned.
Only if they do something "malicious", which in a a game about lawless immortal space warriors means "telling a fib", of course subject to the whims of the GM escalation lottery and the astrological position of Saturn. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1094
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 03:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
If we're in the middle of some internal CCP turf war right now, can somebody tell us?
I cannot fathom what is going on at CCP right now that results in this current state of affairs. Where is the CSM? Where are the CCP community reps? Where is someone who can even acknowledge that they understand the issues that have caused such concern within the community?
At this point the changes are a distant second in my mind compared to what seems to be a complete institutional failure within a company with regards to its internal processes. This whole situation is incomprehensible. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1098
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 03:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:I'm not one of the people who thinks CCP owes me to skew EVE towards the kind of game that I want to play. I just am asking for clarity. If you're going to make rules against malicious trickery, just make rules against it. Don't make a bunch of contradictory, confusing rules and only enforce them against malicious tricksters, hoping that unwritten rules will create less pushback. It's not true, it won't create less pushback, and it's disrespectful--and that's the message you've given in this thread so far.
Absolutely. Clarity and consistency is all we can ask for. Beyond that, it's CCP's game to ruin if they want; just ruin it on purpose instead of by accident because you can't understand the implications of your own changes. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1120
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 21:24:00 -
[34] - Quote
Theon Severasse wrote:I think that in the new thread Mynnna's post is probably the best version of this that we have seen, as it allows what eve players have believed to be acceptable all along (claiming to be someone's alt), but stops what CCP appear to want (direct impersonation through use of name, e.g capital "i" and lowercase "L")
Ya, wow, problem solved as far as I'm concerned. At the very least that post should be the base point that people can then comment on. Good job digging it up, and of course good job to mynnna for posting it in the first place (but no surprise there).
Seeing a blue tag saying that this issue is now being addressed by the proper people through the proper channels is really all I wanted to hear for the last two days. It's unfortunate it took that long and it's unfortunate that the trust doesn't exist that it would have arrived without the formulaic forum-warrioring and general foot-stamping, but here we are; a better place than we were an hour ago.
Thanks to Dolan and whoever else has been working behind the scenes to get this issue properly addressed. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1185
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 12:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:The fact that benevolent misrepresentations are allowed but malevolent ones are not is a problem.
It is, in effect, saying good behaviour = legal, bad behaviour = illegal
That's not the EVE I signed up for seven years ago.
Yup, it's one of the major sticking points in this whole disaster, and should not be allowed to stand. There is effectively no such thing as a "scam" in Eve. An action either breaks the EULA/ToS or it doesn't, CCP should not police in-game transactions. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1194
|
Posted - 2013.09.22 21:03:00 -
[36] - Quote
The font issue is minor, and is easily solved by employing actual legible font and making it clear that names should be read carefully. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1343
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Posted - 2013.10.08 11:51:00 -
[37] - Quote
Stoogie wrote:Is the new ccp policy ignore things till they go away?
That's the oldest of CCP policies.
Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1347
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 15:32:00 -
[38] - Quote
Soooooo...how's this little gem progressing now that we have other hilarious foibles to distract us? Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
2129
|
Posted - 2014.01.12 06:43:00 -
[39] - Quote
Or how about addressing the massive internal failures that created and then perpetuated this hilarious disaster?
Does the GM team still distinguish between otherwise legal in-game actions based on their own interpretation of "maliciousness"?
Does the GM team still believe that it is acceptable policy to have broad, contradictory, and absurd rules that are enforced opaquely and inconsistently because we should "trust them"?
What was the connection between these rule changes and the simultaneous "special relationship" being developed with Somer?
Why were the GMs allowed to post themselves silly for days before someone competent stepped in?
Just because you ignore these critical issues does not make them go away. I guess we'll all be back for the next hilarious PR disaster that could have been avoided by making some hard decisions now (well...three months ago) instead of doing your best ostrich impressions. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |
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